Justifying Your Marketing Budget to the CFO

Welcome to the Oil and Gas Sales and Marketing podcast, where every week, your hosts, Mark Lacour and Matt Bertrand share proven strategies and real-world tactics to help you connect with customers and close more deals. Let's do this. All right, welcome back to the Oil and Gas Sales and Marketing podcast

and Matthew or Matt. We got a review and audience apologies. Evidently, a bunch of y'all have been leaving reviews in the tool that we use to let us know that we got reviews has not been working for some reason for this podcast. And if you don't know this, if you're in the US or if you're in Canada

or if you're in Europe or if you're in Australia, when you leave a review in Apple's podcast, it stays in that local Apple instance. So here in the US, I can't see the reviews you leave in Canada or that you leave in Japan or in Australia. And we use a tool to gather all those.

So apologies. So let me just catch up here. Five Star Review, this marketer's favorite marketing podcast. And this is from CKBear. I'm five episodes in and I can't stop listening. Matt explains marketing strategy like a C-level marketing operations demon

and advanced tactics at the level of someone who is still deep in the game. I'm surprised at how many errors he could dive into. I've listened to SEO, social selling, sales compensation plans, account based selling, lead generation, et cetera. Mark has a great job delivering sales insights, keeping everything on track and asking great questions.

Please guys, keep it up. CKBear, hell yeah. We're going to keep it up. Thank you for the review. And if you'd like to get a big shout out on the show, leave a review.

Once we get this damn tool fixed, we'll make sure to read them on the air and appreciate y'all for giving us props and stuff like this. Today's topic is actually brought by a listener. She wrote in a, I say she, I'm not sure how I know she's a she. Anyway, so this person wrote in a question that Matt and I are going to attempt to answer.

Absolutely love this podcast. Our industry has needed something like this for at least the last decade. The pearls of wisdom that Matt and Mark deliver are worth a fortune. I can't believe you don't charge for access to this podcast. Don't give us ideas reviewer. Here's my question.

I'm a CMO for an extremely large OFS, all filled service company. My CFO hates the term marketing qualified leads. And every time I try to justify my budget with lead metrics, I get pushed back from him. I struggle with this because most companies are perfectly fine measuring the success of marketing teams

by the number of leads and quality that they generate for sales. Any insight or help that you can provide would be greatly appreciated. And I look forward to the book signing. She or he didn't leave her name. So I'm not sure who this came from, which by the way, you go to the OG and website and you can leave a comment like this

and you don't have to identify yourself. We get it. Especially when you're talking about your CFO, you probably don't want to identify yourself. So I want to step into the air. Let me tell you one things I've seen this industry for a very long time.

When your company is selling to Chevron or Exxon or BP or Shell or Halliburton or Slumberjay, it's a different world. And a lot of marketing leaders, I see them fail because they bring these type of tech metrics to our heavy industry, especially in the boardroom, especially when you're talking to the C-level people. In the oil and gas space, there's only a handful of supermajors.

I just talked about them. Exxon, Chevron, blah, blah, blah. And also the large impendents. And if your marketing team is bragging about the success they've generated by generating 500 air quote leads or increasing website traffic by 20% to somebody like the CFO, he's immediately going to look to cut your budget.

In our industry, that doesn't matter. And I've said this for years. I'd rather have one person come to my website and buy from me than 5,000 people come to my website. But in smaller companies, in SMB space, in different industries, especially oil and gas, all those metrics are extremely important.

I know that it's just different here. So for me, the bottom line is you don't need leads. You already know exactly who your buyers are in our space. What you need is account penetration and deal velocity. And those two things are something that marketing people are not comfortable or used to talking with.

But I promise you, if you talk to your CFO about account penetration or increasing speed to close, they will listen to you. We'll stop right there, Max. I can see you got a whole bunch of stuff you want to throw in. Oh, no. I love where you're going.

So I definitely want to go down that vein. But what I wanted to say when we talk like big picture, the generation, marketing-qualified leads, sales-qualified leads, more podcasts you listen to, you'll hear it's really the same thing. They should be qualified the same way. But certainly, sales, cherry picks, sometimes the marketing leads.

But when you go roll up to the C level, what I've seen, and it depends who you're interacting with and what they care about. But most of the time, it's like executive summary. And most of the time, they don't care how many leads. I have one client right now. We generate about 100 leads a week.

OK? Well, we close three a week. OK? But also, when you think about accounting like cash basis versus accrual, the leads that close this week, they had to go to a call center. Someone had to answer it.

They had to go out. They had to visit the customer. The potential prospect close them. Right? Like, these are complex sales. So the things that are closing this week are actually things that

might have happened 30 days ago or 60 days ago. Does that make sense? Measurement is really, really important. And I like to look at things looking backwards, quarterly. I like to look at, like, how do we do this quarter versus that quarter? What do we do?

But also, what I'm seeing that executives care about, and again, it depends on who you're talking to, don't care about leads. They care about deals. They care about what is closed and where are you at with that. And tracking back that attribution to say, we did this campaign. And this is that impact.

And I think you've got to kind of look backwards. It might be quarterly. It might be six months. It might be yearly. And you commit budget to something, and then you measure it. And there are ways now in tools to capture some of these things,

to use UTM codes, to drive them to a landing page, or click through rates, or there's depending on where you're at, and you're not dealing with GDPR. There are tools and pixels you can put on the website to see who came to that website or who came to that landing page. So there's a lot of technology that helps attribution.

And the reason that most people go to paid ads is you think the attribution is really clear. And I would just say it's not because last click attribution that, oh, they clicked on this ad and they converted does not mean that's where the discovery process started. It doesn't mean that the middle of the funnel is what happened.

There's 20 touch points now on average. It actually might be 30. It's 20 or 30. I know it's up from 11. How many touch points it takes to actually close somebody online and change behavior?

There's a lot of things happening online and getting a better picture of what's happening and being able to kind of tell that story quickly and point to the thing that you think is producing the result or the combination of things that's producing that result helps when you're looking from a lead generation. And then the last thing I'll say for like pro bonus points here

is you can run things to like a spreadsheet and then you can run different automations to like filter out spam and stuff like that before you send it on. So your sales team is not like pulling their hair out that there's a bunch of trash leads coming in. I just want to say that from a lead gen standpoint

and then Mark we can go back to what you're talking about with account penetration because that's one of the things with that top like 100 or 200 lists that you're looking at and like who you're meeting there and where those meetings are and showing that visually is what I think that executives like to see of like

we're building these relationships things are moving forward even if there isn't a close. And I remember when I was doing recruiting every step along the way you could put a dollar value to and if you added up all those things it almost related to what the deal size would be

and then you work backwards. Each action becomes a step towards a final deal and then you can measure behavior in that way. I know that was a lot. It was a mouthful. I'm sorry. Well, like I review said they love your mouthful Matt.

They love a lot and I've actually heard this of quite a few people in my cells. Every time we get on the microphone every time we're together I learned some so I love it. But I want to go back to the questions her problem. Basically she's CMO

and she's wanting to have to cost justify her budget and I've been there and I've been there in the oil and gas industry a couple of things. For me the easiest thing to do is to get quick fast agreement on the basics. So in this case think of as three buckets.

So your CMO and your time for you to cost justify your budget to the CFO. The first bucket that's easy to agreement on is to keep the lights on bucket, right? This is your fixed costs like your costs for your CRM your website maintenance, your headcount,

your payroll for your headcount. And it's easy to justify, justify it as a utility bill. This is what it takes to keep the lights on. This is the bare minimum that we need to run our marketing team for this company. The CFO will just nod his head, head or head, right?

It just makes common sense. The next bucket this one's just a little bit harder but if you have a CFO that is in the executive team and they understand completely about business development and sales the next would be to protect the base bucket. What is that?

That's the money that you spend in marketing dedicate to existing customers, doing things like cross selling to them, making sure they're happy, keeping them continually to buy from you. You can look up the metric somewhere.

If I remember right, it costs about five times more to win a new enterprise level deal. So let's say Supermajor. Since you're an awful service company, it costs five times more to win a new Supermajor than to expand an existing agreement

with an existing customer, right? So this next bucket, this protect the base bucket, let's say it's, I don't know, $200,000 or $20 million, basically say this chunk of money, this budget, it secures our existing revenue from our existing customers but it also protects them from our competition.

Once again, I think this is an easy win to get on with the CFO. They'll understand that protecting the base bucket is important and they'll say yes, here's your budget for that. Now here's where the next bucket that a lot of marketing leaders will roll into generating sales leads because it's what most industries want you to do.

And once again, in our industry, it's a little bit different. So instead of having a bucket to generate sales leads, which is a risky place to go as you've learned listener, call it the deal acceleration bucket. Don't call it a lead bucket and talk about it from an account based marketing point of view

about private round tables for the engineering prospects that buy from you. Talk about developing highly technical white papers or videos tailored to very specific challenges. Easy way to call justify that. Now, this isn't as easy as bucket one and bucket two,

but still is an only gas sales cycles are extremely long. It can be 24 months. But if you talk to the CFO and say, look, our normal sales cycle is 24 months, right? And he or she will say, yeah. If marketing can use targeted content to answer

buying teams and buyer committees technical objections before an RFP hits, we shorten that 24 month cycle to 18 months or to 12 months. How much is that worth? You can do the math figure out how much that's worth. So the third bucket, I would never call it lead generation.

I call it the deal acceleration bucket. You're still going to be doing a lot of the same tactical stuff you and your team that would be generate leads. But what you're doing is helping the sales cycle shorten, which has a direct effect to the bottom line, which is something that the CFO is very, very aware of.

Talk about day sales outstanding to your CFO and watch their ears perk up. A couple of things that I think about when you say that. The first thing is when you try to justify marketing costs, sometimes it's helpful to justify marketing costs in terms of like one salesperson or like your worst salesperson

and say like, okay, this is what we're spending on the salesperson. And we can reallocate that budget over here to then create all these acceleration components over here. And I think that talking about deals and not leads is really important. And also I've heard the slogan a number of times, like instead of like generating all these leads,

focus on generating a couple really, really high quality leads and then watch those buckets really closely or it's some kind of form of that. And I think that if you really spend the time in the right place, the quality and depth of the leads, the relationship, the engagement will grow.

And you're right. If you can anticipate the needs and you understand internally what's going on, the best deals that I've ever closed, the best money I've ever made in sales is when you're selling something to them

before an RFP goes out and you're basically going to supply chain or HR, wherever it is, depending on what you're selling and they're paying the PO. Like you've already like offered the solution to the technical manager.

I think that it's about solving problems and about speaking in the right language. I think that that's the biggest thing that's helped me is when I started talking about numbers and like understanding like the P&L and understanding like where the money is going

and where it's flowing, then you don't talk as much vanity metrics and you don't talk marketing lingo to them. And I think the listener is probably above that, but I'm just kind of saying that for the audience is really important for salespeople to know

that the more you can talk the language of the company and what they're trying to achieve and how your solution fits into it and you understand kind of the numbers and we've talked about this on other podcasts, the buying cycles and like what they're needing and how

and if you get on that same page with them and they know you understand their problem and you have the solution, the deals happen way faster and that's like the point of everything we're doing is increasing that sales cycle

and then you could run a model, Mark. You could use AI to even help you run a model. I mean, they're advertising all over the place, but you could say, okay, well, if we accelerated the deals by four months and we closed these sooners,

what kind of impact would that have on revenue? And then you can show them that model or whatever and now you start getting some real engagement around the discussion and saying, okay, this makes sense to put that money towards it because this is customer acquisition costs at this point.

Hey, it's Mark Lacour, Editor-in-Chief of Oil and Gas Global Network. We want to give you something free for being a listener to one of our podcasts. It's very simple. Go to YouTube, search for OGGN

and comment on any video. Send us a screenshot of your comment to marketing at OGGN.com and we will send you a free OGGN hardtop laptop sticker and a temporary tattoo. Once again, super easy.

Just go to YouTube.com, search for OGGN, comment on any video. Send us a screenshot of your comment to marketing at OGGN.com. We'll put some free swag in your mailbox right away. Yeah.

And this goes back to the very fundamentals of this show where Matt and I, actually a lot of people now, and only guess, fundamentally believe that sales and marketing should not be two different departments. They should be joined at the hip

that what they both do are equal sides of the same problem. And unless you have that connection between your sales and marketing, you have missed out on everything Matt just rattled off. And sales, from a budgetary request point of view, sales can be your worst enemy.

If you're in the marketing world, it'll also be your best friend. And it all depends on how well you work with your sales team if you're in the marketing space. I'm going to give you a couple of examples, Matt. I'll give the audience too,

since you'll all listen anyway, of stuff that we've had to do here internally at OGGN from a marketing point of view that is directly related to the information that we get from our sales team. Long time ago,

OGGN used to sell a lot of sponsorship based on brand awareness. Hey, do you want the oil and gas industry to know who your company is and what you did? And it actually worked really well a long time ago. We had a lot of clients who were well known brands.

Let's pick United Airlines, right? They were a past sponsor virus. If you fly anywhere in the world, you know who United Airlines is. However, what you may not know is they have a specialized division

focused on the oil and gas industry to get crews in and out of work zones quickly and easily and allow them to be tracked. And not only that, but if you have a work crew in a country and something bad happens,

like a revolution or something bad politically, they have ability to air vac those crews almost like the military did. Well, the oil and gas industry didn't know that by telling those stories and giving that brand awareness to United Airlines,

we sold sponsorships. Well, now with the proliferation, especially of AI, anybody that's looking for crew safety and moving crews around can ask ChatGBT and they will discover that information, right?

So now us selling brand awareness isn't as important as it used to be. It doesn't move the needle. It doesn't make a CFO or a budgetary holder feel safe. It did in the past, right? But remember, as we go through times,

sales and marketing changes and all, guys. Instead of saying we increase brand awareness by working with us, what if we get something very specific? What if we say we will unblock a stalled RFP with Saudi Aramco for your awful service company?

Do you want to tell me how many people in your service company is gonna say, work with OGGN when I say that we can do that, we can unblock a stalled RFP with Saudi Aramco? Now, in order to do that, we have to know that you have an RFP.

We have to know that it's with Saudi Aramco and we have to know that it's stuck. And how do we know that? By my marketing team working with my sales team, like brother and sister, hand in hand, there's no discrepancy of information.

Another thing is back to that kind of brand awareness. In the old days, marketing used to kind of be promoted as sort of like a megaphone to shout to the masses. This is who my company is, this is what we do. And before the perforation of social media and the internet,

that actually worked really well. It was a one to many approach. You've heard that a million times, you're in marketing. Well, there was only a fixed number of channels, Mark. You had to pick a mass channel and you reached everybody, but now everything's fractured across the board

and you can target each one of those audiences really clearly not waste a lot of budget. Correct, right. So you now take that one to many, that megaphone thing, and you can target it. But another way you can target

when you're having that conversation with somebody who needs to prove your budget is instead of saying we have the ability to shout to the masses, say that our marketing tool is like a scalpel used by a surgeon to remove the friction

from our top 50 accounts to us that matter. That's a different conversation that resonates with the chief financial officer better than saying that my marketing budget is a megaphone to the masses. So as we go through time,

the way you message externally to your prospects and your client changes, but also the way you message internally needs to change. And once again, become friends with your CFO. Become friends with his team. Understand what the financial team

in your company is struggling with. Working for an awful service company, I'm telling you, they carry a lot of weight that you don't know what's going on. They're looking at internal costs of capital. They're looking at deal flow.

They're looking for day sales outstanding. They're looking for all kinds of things that you might be able to help them with you if you understand the financial world. In the past, marketing did not have to understand that. And I would venture to say that in 2026 and moving forward

in the enterprise space and all in gas, if you're a sales and marketing leader, you need to understand your company's finances as good as they do. I'm going to provide a shameless blog here and say from all the data that I'm seeing,

marketing's being looked at as well as say it. Well, marketing and then sales is being looked at of kind of the beach head for AI inside companies. And then it's moving to HR. It's moving to legal.

But they're looking at their marketing team and their IT team to help kind of transform their company internally with AI. And we've seen this a lot, whether it's external or internal. So like you're saying,

people are discovering information differently. Are the AIs and the search engines saying the right thing about you? That's your external data. And then internally, how your data is being handled and also how you're using AI

and what's happening with your data and data leakage and shadow AIs happening. That's where I want to plug Moto Point is doing a lot of stuff internally, helping you with those problems, doing audits, finding the shadow AI,

helping you internally get things set up. And then externally, how is that information being interpreted? That's where EWR Digital comes in. So Moto Point and EWR Digital are kind of part of one body, but they're two hands with different focuses.

And these are starting to be needs that are starting to bubble up. I'm calling it Digital Information Governance, like DIG, is something that I think is starting to be a bigger, bigger issue.

And you're even before telling like different kind of stories. And so I have a bunch of stories that I can share or you can go check out on the websites, but of how we're helping people solve some of these issues that are popping up with AI.

So I think you got to talk financial, but now you got to start talking AI. And that seems to be something in the boardrooms that are starting to come up a lot as what is our AI strategy? What are we doing to leverage that?

And that's one of the things that I've been focusing on for the last number of years. So. And really good timing, Matt, because this episode is sponsored by Moto Point Decision Intelligence for Energy.

All right. So finally, let's close this thing out. So for the CMO, for the awful service company that has to cost justify their budget to the CFO, a couple of bits of advice from me.

Kill the MQL. Kill the market qualified lead. Your CFOs already told you they don't care about that. Do not bring it up again. You may still want to track it internally

for your own use. In fact, you should, quite frankly. But just don't even bring it up again. Next thing, we talk about working with your sales team. Go find your sales leader peer. Have a meeting with your sales,

with his team, his experienced enterprise reps. Shut the door and have them confide in you. Make sure they trust you or they won't confide you. Make sure there's sales leaders there. And literally find out what's their top

five to 10 stalled mega deals. Find out what they are. What's going on with them. Then map out how the people in those buying committees, so stalled deals, actually know about your company,

what they know, why the deal is stalled. And then use your marketing people and your tool set and your experience to help educate that group of buyers, that decision making team for the five

or so stalled mega deals. Now when you go to cost justify your budget to the CFO, you can show him or her how you help move the needle. Yes. These top five deals.

And your budget will be approved. Then last thing, do what I call the whale budget. Build a whale budget. Tie your next budget request directly to the specific expansion

of those deals that were stalled. We got these deals installed. So this is why I need X amount for my budget, besides keeping the lights on. Now we want to go after these same accounts that were stalled.

We want to grow them. Here's the revenue projections for growing them, which by the way, remember it's cheaper for us internally, budgetary wise to grow existing clients, then try to get new clients.

And there you go. There's three steps, three ways to have a conversation, your CFO to cost justify your budget. The world's changing. And doing good business

and understanding how to do business in the oil filled services section in 2026 means that you're going to have to learn finances. But it's not a bad thing, because you know, as much as Matt and I talk about AI,

if somebody's going to replace a marketing leader with technology, they will not replace the marketing leader that understands finance. Bottom line. So I'll add something there,

but there are two things that I would say is AI just amplifies problems or amplifies good things. Okay. So like you've got to really get down to your process and understand what the AI is doing.

And sometimes AI does crazy stuff and takes liberties. And like it's how you build your workflows. That's a whole different topic. But where I was going to go with what you were saying, which I absolutely agree,

today you have to justify your costs and you have to be able to talk that language. I think what you were saying earlier about sales and marketing talking and building a strategy together on how to move the needle

and how to get in front of this person because you have all these digital devices that someone's on and you can build only your sales person is going to know on the front line what assets that they need.

And also those assets sometimes those problems can be scaled across other sales professionals. But if you treat marketing as your air support or your cover support to help change perception or provide visibility to a need that they have

to help move the needle and sales knows what those things are or the repetition to stay in front of those people. These are all things that marketing tactically can help you do with account based selling. And that even goes back to

I listened to some of the episodes about going after the different people on the buying community. Now we're just getting even more laser focused. And you could say with this account, with this person because of the deal size of it,

these are the people we're trying to get in front of and these are their issues. And then you collaborate with marketing on building some assets. And then marketing can help you get in front of those people indirectly in addition to like you just sending

a follow up email or a call or trying to get them to lunch. And you could do that intermittently in between those hard touch points to help nurture that candidate to help close that deal.

And if you can put that together where you go into the CFO's office or whatever or the CFO's office and go, we work together and this is how we close that deal. And you could show that in a neat story line. Like you're going to get budgets approved.

You're probably going to get more budget. You're going to probably be able to say, Hey, with this pilot, we can ramp it up. There's a lot of opportunities for marketing and sales to really work hand in hand and closely together to attack a specific problem

and solve it with different tool sets. Yeah, I love that. Unfortunately, we run out of time folks. So as usual, all of Matt and I's links, social links are in the show notes along with our two newsletters.

Please sign up. We haven't signed up yet. They're good. My marketing team is doing exceptionally well providing high quality content whenever spam you. And now it's time for the LinkedIn failure tip of the week.

And Matt, instead of a failure tip, unless you have one, I actually have a question to you. For the longest time, it was very common knowledge that putting keywords in your LinkedIn profile was very beneficial, especially if you were either job hunting or if you were salesperson

and you wanted to attract the right prospects to your LinkedIn profile. Now with the proliferation of AI, do you think it's still important having to write keywords and key phrases in your LinkedIn profile? What I would say is AI is a new layer, okay,

on top of existing infrastructure that has been built. These algorithms and technology are already in place. They're not going to change the bedrock out for AI. They're going to add jump to that. What I would say is AI helps interpret the data better and help make matches and connections

where before all it could do was seek out keywords. Absolutely. If you're even posting content, I think I talked about this one of the most recent podcasts. If you're posting content about a certain topic and that topic is not somewhere listed in your profile,

it's not going to do as well. There's going to be an accelerant because it's saying, hey, you're an expert about this thing or you know about this thing because it's in your profile and then you're talking about it. This is with search engines

and this is with the social media algorithms. It's about themes or clusters of information and associations and pattern recognition. If you're talking about something that is completely off the wall that no one's ever talked about again,

you have to tie it into something that is aware and then you're adding something new to the conversation and you've got to build that connection. Think about entities, person, place, thing and associations. Now AI with more computes, the more compute you give it, the better models you give it,

the more it can look at context and the more it can remember at once to find those associations. Keywords are the simplest way to make that connection but also there's spam algorithms that run that if you're over-optimizing a piece of content

or something like that, like a resume, it could trigger a threshold. There's a little bit of math involved in this but generally I believe staying on topic and keeping a strong signal is quite important and also understanding the categorization of information.

Just look at Wikipedia. Everybody hates Wikipedia? I mean not everybody, I see some people absolutely love it but Wikipedia, the reason search engines and AI love it and why it shows up a lot is about how they categorize information

and how they build all those connections and build those layers. So if you just think about, okay, this is what I'm trying to say, say it clearly, say it direct and also you can provide references or associations around what you're talking about

and the better that AI understands what you're trying to communicate, the better it's going to do whatever it's going to do and then there's going to be different trust and authority layers that feed into that. But where people get off is like,

you can't just talk about, you have to structure the information in a way that's being interpreted and that's one of the biggest things that I'm doing right now is there's a lot of businesses that have changed names, locations, everything across the internet,

like data's messy and it's fragmented to entities and you're not getting the credit for what you do in the real world and you're, I know the word digital twin is bad and you told me not to use it, there's an association with what you do

in the real world and online and what you're trying to do is mirror that as best you can so that you get the credit you deserve in the search engines online and on the social media sites. And I know that's a super long-winded answer, but hopefully there was some nuggets of value

for anybody listening in that. No, it was valuable to me so really it goes back to what's always been kind of trying true in that don't try to fool game the system. No. Try to be educational and helpful and it pays off for you.

They're actually adjusted a post about this on LinkedIn that basically fake reviews don't do it, don't buy fake traffic, don't do any of these things because it's looking back at the data source, it's looking at all the associations of what that's doing and it's polluting data.

And also if it's unnatural, it gives it a spike that will give you a temporary pop and then it could tank even lower. Okay, it's just do the things that you know that are the best practices to try to meet the standards of what you're trying to follow

because what I would tell you is trying to gain the system today, the AIs are getting smarter and smarter and as they uncover these patterns or if you're operating in a bad neighborhood or with bad actors, it's not just the association with the bad actor,

it's like two jumps away. If you're operating in the gray and then they're operating in the black, it can impact you. Those connections and those networks bring back to you. So what you want to try to do is operate

at the most highest level you can and spend all your energy and time doing things the right way. Now if you don't know what the right things are, then go learn that. But doing things the right way is where you're going to get the compounding effect

and as these algorithms update and get smarter, you're just going to get better strength and visibility and authority because it's seen that you did it the right way as it feels back the onion and the people that did it the wrong way,

they got to always be looking over their shoulder and they're going to get exposed. I mean, there's so many examples of even large, large corporations that have built certain kind of schemes that once it gets uncovered, they can go bankrupt.

You've got to be really careful what you're doing, the kind of vendors you use, how you're operating and marketing that, like, you've got to make these decisions. It's something to definitely think about. All right, well, we went over time. Sorry, audience, but like I said,

if you'd like a big shout out, leave us a review, happy to read it on the air. Remember, make a difference and not a sale. Thanks for listening to OGGM, the world's largest and most listened to podcast network for the oil and energy industry.

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